[BVARC] Building an FSD
Jonathan Guthrie
ka8kpn at ka8kpn.org
Tue Mar 23 08:37:38 CDT 2021
My understanding is that "early bird" was $10, which ended the Friday
before it was "live", and it was supposed to be $12 the day of. So, my
guess is that, if they'll let you pay now, that it's $12.
What I don't know is what's supposed to happen after April 15th. Some of
the presentations, the ones from the vendors, are now on YouTube. Maybe
the others will just become unavailable, which seems like a loss to me.
On 3/22/2021 8:45 PM, Mark Brantana via BVARC wrote:
> What is the price of admission?
>
>> On Mar 22, 2021, at 7:37 PM, Rick Hiller via BVARC <bvarc at bvarc.org
>> <mailto:bvarc at bvarc.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Mark,
>> Have a read in an ARRL Antenna Handbook about antenna measurements,
>> test site set up, absolute gain and pattern measurements. Might
>> shed some light on your project.
>> Also near field versus far field distances and characteristics.
>>
>> That forum’s presentations are on demand online until April 15th.
>> Working my way thru. I’ve only seen a few so far.
>> RH
>>
>>
>> On Mar 22, 2021, at 5:32 PM, Mark Brantana via BVARC <bvarc at bvarc.org
>> <mailto:bvarc at bvarc.org>> wrote:
>>
>>> FSD = Field Strength Drone
>>>
>>> We have had some fun discussions about this idea. I wish I could
>>> have visited the forum held recently, but I had to miss it. I
>>> understand someone had someone talked about a related topic, and I
>>> have looked at the article Jeff kindly sent me. I hope I did not
>>> miss anything else, but I have tried to read and follow up on all
>>> the comments. This educational jaunt has given me some help in
>>> better understanding field strength meters.
>>>
>>> Antenna Orientation: I was especially struck by one very old and
>>> classic demo showing the response of a receiver in a non-aligned
>>> configuration with the antenna orientation. For example, a
>>> horizontal receiving antenna and a vertical transmitting antenna, or
>>> vice versa. This demo showed clearly that the antenna needs to be
>>> properly oriented, and that a 90 degree disorientation gave no
>>> response at all. So, an FSD would have to have 360 response in order
>>> that the orientation does not introduce falsely attenuated response
>>> simply due to the antenna orientation. It might look something like
>>> a Van der Graff ball somehow; and possibly this is why it the
>>> dangling antenna looks like a ball in Jeff’s reference.
>>>
>>> Antenna Length: Then, there is the question; how big does it need to
>>> be. Since a field strength indication is really a relative reading,
>>> this may not be an issue. It does introduce a complication in that
>>> the field strength meter would need to be tightly tuned to a testing
>>> frequency, even if the antenna is really inefficient. Without
>>> tuning, the field strength antenna will very strongly tend toward
>>> resonation on shorter wavelengths, and thus provide false readings.
>>>
>>> In other words, the little wire coming off of the field strength
>>> meter we may have, but have never used, may qualitative only and not
>>> quantitative, since the reading will depend on the orientation and
>>> length of its antenna. An antenna for the Field Strength Drone would
>>> have additional requirements to satisfy the measurement
>>> requirements. It is not going to be a matter of just flying a field
>>> strength meter through the field.
>>>
>>> Food for thought. Opinions?
>>>
>>> Mark
>>> N5PRD
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Mar 10, 2021, at 5:36 PM, Mark Brantana <mark.brantana at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:mark.brantana at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for all the great comments. The real question at this time
>>>> is, does anyone have an interest in working with me on this
>>>> project? It is a purely ham project and we get paid in bragging
>>>> rights.
>>>> Mark
>>>> N5PRD
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 10, 2021, at 5:17 PM, Mark Brantana
>>>>> <mark.brantana at gmail.com <mailto:mark.brantana at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Rick,
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed. And it is beginning to look like there is a need to build
>>>>> and test such a thing to really learn it’s value. For instance, I
>>>>> never knew how useful an my nanoVNA would be until I bought one.
>>>>> Sure, I could do an SWR study the old way, but the new widget
>>>>> enables me to do a lot more, faster and easier.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just threw this question out this morning for discussion, and
>>>>> got my money’s worth from everyone. It was academic at that time,
>>>>> but now I am wondering all the more why there isn’t some video on
>>>>> YouTube showing some ham who has built such a device. It seems
>>>>> like this is something wanting to be made, at least for ham use.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2021, at 2:59 PM, Gary Sitton via BVARC
>>>>>> <bvarc at bvarc.org <mailto:bvarc at bvarc.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rick:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I really agree especially since I've looked into the drone motor
>>>>>> controllers.
>>>>>> They typically emit so much onboard and radiated hash that
>>>>>> special by-pass
>>>>>> precautions are taken with some of the onboard sensors, e.g.
>>>>>> accelerometers
>>>>>> for orientation sensing. I disagree that modelling software is
>>>>>> adequate for
>>>>>> the typical antenna environment, e.g. antennas below a
>>>>>> wavelength. Also
>>>>>> conformation of directional antenna's front-to-back and forward
>>>>>> gain for
>>>>>> optimization purposes would be nice if even perhaps extravagant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 73, Gary K5AMH
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PS: Most drone controllers use the STM ARM processors for which there
>>>>>> is free open source drone software: https://betaflight.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/10/2021 2:34 PM, Rick Hiller via BVARC wrote:
>>>>>>> Comment: Is an FSD applicable?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Although an FSD would provide a close-in Far Field pattern of an
>>>>>>> antenna antenna installation, which is very cool indeed. Is it
>>>>>>> really necessary in the world of Ham Radio?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We already have antenna modeling software based on the NEC which
>>>>>>> is quite accurate, depending on the set up parameters provided,
>>>>>>> of course. That model analysis provides us with a pattern and
>>>>>>> a fair amount of operational information.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But what do we (I) really want? I want to know what and how my
>>>>>>> antenna is performing in the real world outside of my QTH. Is
>>>>>>> it getting to Europe or VK? When is the best time and
>>>>>>> frequency to get to Japan or South Africa? Questions like this
>>>>>>> are not to be answered by a FSD.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What we really need is a world wide system to detect our signals
>>>>>>> wherever they may occur. So let's start thinking of that. We
>>>>>>> just need a few hams on every continent to
>>>>>>> participate........Wait! Not so fast.......there is already a
>>>>>>> system that does this. WSPR and it is available from a local
>>>>>>> amateur radio dealer -- SOTA Beams
>>>>>>> *_https://www.sotabeams.co.uk/wsprlite-classic
>>>>>>> <https://www.sotabeams.co.uk/wsprlite-classic>. _* QST Dec
>>>>>>> 2018 even has a review of this system.
>>>>>>> *_https://www.sotabeams.co.uk/content/QSTREVIEW.pdf
>>>>>>> <https://www.sotabeams.co.uk/content/QSTREVIEW.pdf> _*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now look, I am not poo pooing the FSD concept , ideas,
>>>>>>> discussion, etc. Very cool indeed to get a group of folks
>>>>>>> excited and discussing antenna stuff. Woo Hoo! I'm all for
>>>>>>> it, being the antenna phreak that I am. I'm just taking a step
>>>>>>> back and seeing if it is necessary, practical or even applicable
>>>>>>> for Hams. Plus, maybe some don't know about WSPR.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 73...Rick -- W5RH
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
>>>>>>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 1:57 PM Jeffery MacMillian via BVARC
>>>>>>> <bvarc at bvarc.org <mailto:bvarc at bvarc.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is a good paper on this very topic.....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.narda-sts.com/en/selective-emf/srm-3006-field-strength-analyzer/eID/pd/pdce/9063/pdfr/9500/
>>>>>>> <https://www.narda-sts.com/en/selective-emf/srm-3006-field-strength-analyzer/eID/pd/pdce/9063/pdfr/9500/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> have Fun,
>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>> KC5TT
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 1:31 PM Tom Watson via BVARC
>>>>>>> <bvarc at bvarc.org <mailto:bvarc at bvarc.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brilliant!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021, 12:22 AM Mark Brantana via BVARC
>>>>>>> <bvarc at bvarc.org <mailto:bvarc at bvarc.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OK, what is an FSD? It is a Field Strength Drone.
>>>>>>> It’s an idea I am sure others have had, and I don’t
>>>>>>> expect to get around to designing or patenting such
>>>>>>> a thing. But inventions are often just the merging
>>>>>>> of new technologies, and this is not much different.
>>>>>>> I don’t see any YouTubes about this or any other
>>>>>>> reference, so here’s the idea:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With all the capabilities of little drones I wonder
>>>>>>> if anyone has designed one which can carry a field
>>>>>>> strength meter and fly a grid around an antenna to
>>>>>>> evaluate antenna performance. The guts of my little
>>>>>>> Radio Shack FSM would have weighed way less than an
>>>>>>> ounce.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ideally, the field strength meter could communicate
>>>>>>> to the base through the drone transmitter, reducing
>>>>>>> weight. Software at the base could link the drone 3D
>>>>>>> location data with the FS reading. The drone would
>>>>>>> have to wait at test locations for the operator to
>>>>>>> transmit, and ideally would move to the next
>>>>>>> location. Finally, the software might be able to
>>>>>>> link with existing simulation software for
>>>>>>> comparison with theory and allow for simulation
>>>>>>> model improvement. This looks like it would take a
>>>>>>> small team to develop.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This sounds like it would have many uses besides
>>>>>>> antenna evaluation, like RFI evaluation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What about it? Has anyone done this?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>> N5PRD
>>>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Brazos Valley Amateur Radio Club
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BVARC mailing list
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>>>>>>> http://mail.bvarc.org/mailman/listinfo/bvarc_bvarc.org
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>>>>>>> <https://www.mail-archive.com/bvarc@bvarc.org/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Brazos Valley Amateur Radio Club
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Brazos Valley Amateur Radio Club
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Rick Hiller
>>>>>>> */e-mail: rickhiller73 at gmail.com <mailto:rickhiller73 at gmail.com>/*
>>>>>>> */Cell: 832-474-3713/*
>>>>>>> */Physical: 9031 Troulon Drive/*
>>>>>>> */ Houston, TX 77036/*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Brazos Valley Amateur Radio Club
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> Publicly available archives are available here:https://www.mail-archive.com/bvarc@bvarc.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Gary Sitton, K5AMH
>>>>>> gasitton at comcast.net
>>>>>> SDR/DSP Consultant,
>>>>>> "Have FFTs, Will Travel."
>>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>>> Brazos Valley Amateur Radio Club
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>> ________________________________________________
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>>
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>
>
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